CONVERSION and SALVATION: Are they the same thing or significantly different?

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Permalink Reply by Caral on August 20, 2009 at 5:53am

Dear Minister Tracy,

I believe that there is a difference.

When we look at the conversion of Saul, we see that he was converted on the road to Damacus, he received from God, spiritual enlightenment, his spirituality was awaken to the reality that Jesus Christ was in fact The Holy one of Israel, and the church he had been persecuting was the Lord Himself. However, Paul, did not receive his fully assured salvation until he was filled with the Spirit and baptized in water.

When we partake in the baptism of death with our Lord (Rom 6:4) we are resurrected into newness of life and become a brand new creation, (2 Cor 5:17) it is at this point our spirit has been joined and fused to the Lord's Spirit (1cor 6:17) we become one with the Son and therefore with the Father (John 17:21) we are have become fully regenerated, and our salvation is assured.

This is my understanding, many may disagree.

Be blessed
Caral

Ed: Romans 6:4 (NKJV) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

2 Cor 5: 17 (NKJV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

1Cor 6:17 (NKJV) But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

John 17:21 ( NKJV) that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us.

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Permalink Reply by HOPE - Psalm 43:5 on August 20, 2009 at 11:59am

Caral, I'm going to ask a question.... but when I ask this of others, they think I'm against baptism... which I am not, I'm all for it!!

But I asked this of many others. If one of our soldiers who are fighting in the desert hears the word of God and believes the Word spoken to them and is killed before being water baptized is his salvation incomplete?


Romans 10:8-14
Ephesians 2:8-9


How do we reconcile

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

With these scriptures:
Matthew 26:28
Acts 13:37-39
Acts 15:7-11
John 6:53-56
Acts 19:3-5


And when we consider baptism... why don't we consider the corelation to the mikvah and ritual cleansing and purification???



"Mikvah" - (f., pl. "Mikvaot"); a ritual pool of water, used for the purpose of attaining ritual purity. Immersion in a Mikvah is performed for the following main purposes:

It is used in connection with Repentance to remove the impurity of sin.

It is also used in connection with Conversion, because the convert has taken upon himself or herself to adopt the lifestyle of the Jew, that is based on the recognition of God as King of the Universe and on the obligation to perform the commandments of the Torah.


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Niddah" - (f., pl. "Niddot"); literally "removed or separated;" generally in the context of Jewish Marital Laws (known as "Taharat HaMishpacha," or Family Purity). When a married woman is in the menstrual state, Jewish Law requires a period of separation from her husband.

It is the obligation of the woman to examine herself, and if she detects even the smallest drop of blood, she must inform her husband, and they must withdraw from each other, until her period of "clean days" is over. Then she should immerse herself in a Mikvah, and afterwards, they should return to each other and resume normal marital relations.

Prophets also use the term to depict the People of Israel when they are involved in sin, such as immorality or idol-worship or violence, and consequent estrangement from HaShem.

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Permalink Reply by Evangelist Altha Fugett on August 21, 2009 at 7:56am

Tracy, Water Baptism is commanded of us as an outward show of conversion, we are baptised because we ARE SAVED, have salvation, not to be saved. So the answer to your question is that the soldier's salvation would be complete.

There is nothing that a man or we on earth can do to save us, only our confession that Jesus lived, died, rose, and ascended does that

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Permalink Reply by Caral on August 21, 2009 at 9:03am

Hi Tracy

With regard to the soldiers, as a hypothetical question I am always step cautiously. It raises a number of questions, one problem is if they are American or British the chance of them not hearing the Word of God or the Gospel previously I believe would be fairly remote. This also raises the question, are they now agreeing with the gospel because they have are looking eternity in the face, whereas they may have rejected it previously. Is there deathbed repentance?

Conversely if God has called them and chosen them to salvation and He has chosen that they are saved in the last moments of life, then so be it, they are saved and we praise God.

With regard to the area being desert, so therefore no water for full immersion. The Didache (circa 100 AD) does say that baptism can be performed with running water.

7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
7:3 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
7:6 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able;
7:7 and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.

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Permalink Reply by Rev. Anthony Luckett on August 21, 2009 at 8:16am

That soldier is saved! Baptism is a outward expression of an inner change. From my experience of witnessing when you ask people are they saved, the first response is "i'm baptized." I then explain to them that being saved, and baptized are 2 different things. Some believe the baptism saves them. One must be converted, or transformed, in order to be saved.

sal⋅va⋅tion  /sælˈveɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sal-vey-shuhn] Show IPA
Use salvation in a Sentence
–noun 1. the act of saving or protecting from harm, risk, loss, destruction, etc.
2. the state of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.
3. a source, cause, or means of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.
4. Theology. deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption


con⋅ver⋅sion  /kənˈvɜrʒən, -ʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuhn-vur-zhuhn, -shuhn] Show IPA
Use conversion in a Sentence
–noun 1. the act or process of converting; state of being converted.
2. change in character, form, or function.
3. spiritual change from sinfulness to righteousness.

bap⋅tism  /ˈbæptɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [bap-tiz-uhm] Show IPA
Use baptism in a Sentence
–noun 1. Ecclesiastical. a ceremonial immersion in water, or application of water, as an initiatory rite or sacrament of the Christian church.
2. any similar ceremony or action of initiation, dedication, etc.
3. a trying or purifying experience or initiation.


*the definitions came from an online dictionary. I don't have my bible dictionary with me.

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Permalink Reply by HOPE - Psalm 43:5 on August 21, 2009 at 8:53am

I agree with what you say but for some reason just bcuz I ask these types of questions it is assumed that I discount the significance of water baptism. I don't we are commanded to be baptized. The babptism that I don't agree with is sprinkling and baptizing infants and non Believers.

I also would like to add that it is part of the Jewish culuture. It is not something new that popped on the scene with John the Baptizer and with Jesus and the apostles. It is a ritual cleansing. But Gods word tells us that we are cleansed by His blood and by His word also. We can't take the scripture that commands us to be baptized for the remission of sins out of context of the chapter, the book, nor the whole Bible.

We need the complete picture not just one scripture.

Baptism is an outward sign of what happened on the inside but in context of the entire Bible it is a purification ritual that Jesus wanted us to continue.

Evg Fuggett hit the nail on the head when she said there is NOTHING we can do to save ourselves. Salvation is a gift of God not of any works on our part lest any person should boast.

It is by grace we are saved thru faith, it is a gift of God as we confess with our mouths our belief in the Lord Jesus and that He was raised from the dead all according to the scriptures that is preached to a person which gives them faith (by hearing) .

Salvation says I believe

Conversion says Now that I believe I commit to the lifestyle of the on in Whom I believe.

I have another question... Where does repentance come in?? Salvation or conversion or both???

In other words do you have to repent to get saved?

I guess an even better question is what is everyones understanding or definition of repentance?

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Permalink Reply by Elder T. Byron Williams on August 21, 2009 at 9:00am

There is no need for me to beat a dead horse....you know, I know, and most know that I am Apostolic, Oneness, Jesus Only, or whatever you want to call me. I just go by a child of God. Nevertheless, I do believe that water baptism is not only a part of salvation, but a necessity, a must in the plan of salvation. (Mark 16:16) He that believes and is baptized shallbe saved. Repent, be baptized and she shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost But that is not the question at hand.

It is my opinion is one accepts the Lord and does not have the chance to be baptized in water, but does acknowledge that water baptism is needed, but dies, there is a chance they could be saved. But we also must take into account if this person has had chances to be baptized and have rejected it. I knew of a story of man who took his wife to church every Sunday, but never came to church. Would pick her up, but never came to church. Yet he knew the plan of salvation and the need of water baptism....maybe his wife told him. Well! on his death bed, he called for the pastor to be baptized The pastor asked the doctor if he had a tub where he could baptized the man, the doctor replied if this man was disconnected from the tubes he would die on the spot......but he could sprinkle him with water. The Pastor replied that he wouldn't play with God like that.

In closing, was this man saved or not, I don't know, but he was given or had numerous chances to be baptized. And as I tell many people we serve a loving, a forgiving God, but nevertheless, He still is nobody chump. So in closing, I will never say that one cannot be saved at that point, because grace can break the rule. But at the same time when one hears the Lord, harden not your heart. .

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Permalink Reply by Evangelist Altha Fugett on August 21, 2009 at 10:05am

The man was saved, because first and foremost as the pastor stated no man on earth can play God, or do do what Jesus has already done. His confession was enough, and if it wasn't sincere, only God sees the heart

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Permalink Reply by EW Ministries on August 21, 2009 at 5:45pm

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Permalink Reply by HOPE - Psalm 43:5 on August 21, 2009 at 5:49pm

It seems you are missing your instrument(s) while beating the horse. Your video has sound but the PICTURE is incomplete.

Kinda proves a point doesn't it? LOL

We talk about the repentance and salvation aspect of baptism and forget to mention the OT root for an even deeper understanding of the signifcance of baptism.

As Christians, we tend to toss out our Jewish Roots... that we were grafted into. *sigh*

The one thing I tell people all the time is.. if you don't like a discussion, why participate?

Go 'head mamacita... dance to your video.

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Permalink Reply by HOPE - Psalm 43:5 on August 21, 2009 at 5:54pm

If you really want to participate, why not answer the orignial question of the discussion.

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Permalink Reply by Rev. Anthony Luckett on August 21, 2009 at 9:13am

yes, one must repent in order to be saved. If they have not repented (turned from sin, rebellion against God) how can they be saved. Jesus said in Matthew 4:17 "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." why do we need to repent, in order to gain entrance into heaven and to be about our Father's business. In the baptist denomination, one must be saved before they can be baptized. For babies, we do what is call a baby dedication- basically sprinkling, or wetting the head of the baby and dedicating them back to the Lord. Repentance comes from the heart. A non believer should not be baptized. If they don't believe Jesus is Lord and Savior, what are they getting baptized for? It absolutely means nothing. Its a mockery to God, waste of time, and just for show. When one is being baptized they are expressing (or should be) the fact that they have changed their lives and now will follow Christ. But some get baptized because momma nem said they needed to do so, but they don't give them an explanation on why. Years ago a woman inquired about her daughter getting baptized. I told her she needed to be saved first. Unfortunately that young lady, well she's grown now, hasn't come to Christ but we are still in prayer for her. I've seen kids come to the altar and have no clue what they are doing. They only come because mama made them go up to the front. And when you ask them about getting saved, they say yes that Jesus is Lord, but they have a look on thier faces like "yea right," i'm just up here because mama made me come. sorry for the rant. lol

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